[Erp5-dev] person and vat code

Thu Feb 5 15:56:11 CET 2009

2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>
> In the case of Poland, there is at least:
>    - fiscal_code (NIP) - for Person & Organisation
>    - social_code (PISEN) - for Person & Organisation
>    - vat_code (EC VAT Numbver) - for Organisation only
>

No. In Poland, there are only TWO codes:

- social_code (PESEL) - for Person
- "the other code" (NIP) - for Person and Organisation

The point you are still missing is that:

fiscal_code === vat_code

The official definition of a NIP is something like:

"A unique identifier provided by the tax administration for any
individual or organisation who is subject to any tax or social
security payments to Polish authorities".

(for Polish speakers: "Numer NIP to numer identyfikujący podmioty
będące na terenie Polski podatnikami, płatnikami podatków oraz
płatnikami składek ZUS.")

So, when I started a vat-paying business (established an Organisation,
if you prefer it that way), I used the same fiscal code as when I was
a consumer. There is no separate vat code. The EC vat number is the
same number prefixed by a country code.

Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
corporation.

Bartek

> Regards,
>
> JPS.
>
>
> Bartek Gorny a écrit :
>> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
>>> we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
>>> in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
>>> country.
>>>
>>> A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
>>> a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
>>> individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
>>> that person in a unique manner.
>>>
>>> In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
>>> be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
>>>
>>> In the end, there are 2 different documents:
>>> a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
>>> b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
>>> in ERP5
>>>
>>> So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
>>> - one Person which represents himself as physical entity
>>> - one Person which represents his/her business
>>>
>>
>> Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
>> represents his/her business" here, right?
>>
>>
>>> The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
>>> business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
>>> corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
>>> therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
>>> conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
>>> operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
>>> individual business.
>>>
>>
>> I considered this approach, but saw two major drawbacks:
>>
>> - in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
>> an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
>> when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
>> owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
>> business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
>>
>> - the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
>> common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
>> countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
>> the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
>> with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
>> have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
>>
>> As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
>> from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
>> retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
>> does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
>> contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
>> doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
>> the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
>> be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
>> a new one.
>>
>> Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
>> something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
>> security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
>> is missing.
>>
>> Bartek
>>
>>
>>> The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
>>> a case in which:
>>> - a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
>>> individual business)
>>> - purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
>>> - and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
>>>
>>> If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
>>> not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
>>> form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
>>>
>>> About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
>>> issues nowadays in ERP5:
>>> 1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
>>> necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
>>> addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
>>> value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
>>> are unique for a given country.
>>> 2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
>>> vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
>>> related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
>>> missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
>>> which is both universal and covers all cases.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> JPS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vera Kurpas a écrit :
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 17:32 +0100, Bartek Gorny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
>>>>> vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
>>>>> has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
>>>>> person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
>>>>> person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
>>>>> organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
>>>>> if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
>>>>> NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
>>>>> other applications NIP is used to property identify a
>>>>> person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
>>>>> France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
>>>>> unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
>>>>> consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
>>>> number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
>>>> registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
>>>> business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
>>>> The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
>>>>> be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
>>>> and sorting purposes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If
>>>>> not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>> http://www.erp5.com
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>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
> http://www.erp5.com
> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
> http://www.myerp5.com
> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
> http://www.nexedi.com
>
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