[Erp5-dev] person and vat code
Jean-Paul Smets
jp at nexedi.com
Thu Feb 5 16:03:25 CET 2009
Bartek Gorny a écrit :
> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>
>> In the case of Poland, there is at least:
>> - fiscal_code (NIP) - for Person & Organisation
>> - social_code (PISEN) - for Person & Organisation
>> - vat_code (EC VAT Numbver) - for Organisation only
>>
>>
>
> No. In Poland, there are only TWO codes:
>
> - social_code (PESEL) - for Person
> - "the other code" (NIP) - for Person and Organisation
>
> The point you are still missing is that:
>
> fiscal_code === vat_code
>
> The official definition of a NIP is something like:
>
> "A unique identifier provided by the tax administration for any
> individual or organisation who is subject to any tax or social
> security payments to Polish authorities".
>
> (for Polish speakers: "Numer NIP to numer identyfikujący podmioty
> będące na terenie Polski podatnikami, płatnikami podatków oraz
> płatnikami składek ZUS.")
>
> So, when I started a vat-paying business (established an Organisation,
> if you prefer it that way), I used the same fiscal code as when I was
> a consumer. There is no separate vat code. The EC vat number is the
> same number prefixed by a country code.
>
Thanks. There are 2 numbers:
fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
other countries) which is ony for Organisation
> Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
> like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
> tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
> corporation.
>
NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
Regards,
JPS.
> Bartek
>
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> JPS.
>>
>>
>> Bartek Gorny a écrit :
>>
>>> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
>>>> we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
>>>> in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
>>>> country.
>>>>
>>>> A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
>>>> a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
>>>> individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
>>>> that person in a unique manner.
>>>>
>>>> In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
>>>> be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
>>>>
>>>> In the end, there are 2 different documents:
>>>> a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
>>>> b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
>>>> in ERP5
>>>>
>>>> So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
>>>> - one Person which represents himself as physical entity
>>>> - one Person which represents his/her business
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
>>> represents his/her business" here, right?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
>>>> business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
>>>> corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
>>>> therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
>>>> conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
>>>> operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
>>>> individual business.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I considered this approach, but saw two major drawbacks:
>>>
>>> - in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
>>> an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
>>> when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
>>> owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
>>> business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
>>>
>>> - the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
>>> common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
>>> countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
>>> the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
>>> with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
>>> have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
>>>
>>> As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
>>> from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
>>> retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
>>> does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
>>> contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
>>> doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
>>> the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
>>> be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
>>> a new one.
>>>
>>> Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
>>> something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
>>> security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
>>> is missing.
>>>
>>> Bartek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
>>>> a case in which:
>>>> - a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
>>>> individual business)
>>>> - purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
>>>> - and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
>>>>
>>>> If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
>>>> not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
>>>> form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
>>>> issues nowadays in ERP5:
>>>> 1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
>>>> necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
>>>> addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
>>>> value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
>>>> are unique for a given country.
>>>> 2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
>>>> vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
>>>> related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
>>>> missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
>>>> which is both universal and covers all cases.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> JPS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Vera Kurpas a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 17:32 +0100, Bartek Gorny wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
>>>>>> vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
>>>>>> has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
>>>>>> person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
>>>>>> person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
>>>>>> organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
>>>>>> if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
>>>>>> NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
>>>>>> other applications NIP is used to property identify a
>>>>>> person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
>>>>>> France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
>>>>>> unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
>>>>>> consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
>>>>> number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
>>>>> registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
>>>>> business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
>>>>> The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
>>>>>> be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
>>>>> and sorting purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If
>>>>>> not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>> http://www.erp5.com
>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>> http://www.myerp5.com
>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
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