[Erp5-dev] person and vat code
Jean-Paul Smets
jp at nexedi.com
Tue Feb 10 10:13:42 CET 2009
Hi,
I actually started working on page with a summary of this discussion.
In short:
- for immediate use, only way is to add "fiscal_code"
- to solve all issues, it is necessary to extend code system with
predicates. This can take up to 10 man days and requires a lot of
verification of the impact on all other modules
Regards,
JPS.
Bartek Gorny a écrit :
> Hello, hello - anybody there? I thought we started working on something...
>
> This list is an attempt to put together a generic list and apply it to
> Polish condition - to test if it is ok requires a similar application
> for other countries. And a constructive criticism from some of the
> core developers...
>
> B.
>
> 2009/2/5 Bartek Gorny <bartek at gorny.edu.pl>:
>
>> Let's try to put it all together - first a list of properties, then
>> questions, then what is missing currently in ERP5, then issues to
>> discuss:
>>
>> Properties
>> ------------
>> The following numbers/codes are essential from legal and fiscal point of view:
>>
>> personal ID
>> description: a unique number given to every person
>> refers to: Person
>> multiplicity: 1 *
>> name in ERP5: social_code
>> name in Poland: PESEL
>>
>> * in fact a person who has multiple citizenship can have the ID in
>> more then one country, but we probably don't have to bother
>>
>> registration code
>> description: provided by the business registry for the company
>> refers to: Organisation
>> multiplicity: 1
>> name in ERP5: corporate_registration_code
>> name in Poland: KRS
>>
>> activity code
>> description: provided by statistics institute to produce national statistics
>> refers to: Organisation
>> multiplicity: 1
>> name in ERP5: activity_code
>> name in Poland: REGON
>>
>> fiscal code
>> description: a unique number given to every tax payer; given to every
>> adult citizen and to every legal entity; used for filing tax forms,
>> vat settlements, printed on invoices within the country
>> refers to: Person and Organisation
>> multiplicity: 1 *
>> name in ERP5: (missing)
>> name in Poland: NIP
>>
>> * except corner cases like expatriates, which we probably can skip
>>
>> european vat code
>> description: a unique number given to every business entity trading
>> with other EU countries; printed on invoices issued for foreign
>> clients
>> refers to: Person
>> multiplicity: many - potentially one per EU country *
>> name in ERP5: vat_code
>> name in Poland: "Europejski numer VAT" or "NIP europejski"
>>
>> * normally an organisation registers for EU vat code in its country of
>> residence; however, there are cases whereby an organisation pays VAT
>> also in other EU countries to which it exports
>>
>> Questions:
>> -----------
>> - what is geographic_incorporate_code?
>> - what is social_code of an Organisation?
>>
>> What is missing
>> -------------------
>>
>> - fiscal code for both Person and Organisation
>> - multiple vat_codes
>>
>> Discussion
>> -----------------
>>
>> 1) Some countries have something like "social security number", I
>> don't know if it is an equivalent of "personal ID" or "fiscal code". I
>> hope someone from another country joins the discussion...
>>
>> 2) I think social code and fiscal code should be catalogged - this is
>> because (a) these codes are very important and are often used to find
>> and identify a person or an organisation, and (b) because they are
>> assured to be unique country-wide, so a serious application should be
>> able to check if there are no duplicates.
>>
>> 3) If we follow the principle that a business activity of a Person is
>> represented by a respective Organisation, what relation should link
>> the two? I presume there should be a relation, and some properties
>> (like fiscal code or default address) will be acquired along the
>> relation.
>>
>> 4) Maybe we could develop something like "country-based property",
>> where one could input one value per every country defined in the
>> region tree - that would cover all corner cases of expats with
>> mutliple ids and fiscal codes, companies with multiple vat codes etc?
>>
>> Bartek
>>
>>
>> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>>
>>> Bartek Gorny a écrit :
>>>
>>>> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks. There are 2 numbers:
>>>>> fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
>>>>> vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
>>>>> other countries) which is ony for Organisation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> That's quite correct, but - please keep in mind that while a business
>>>> has to have a NIP to operate, it doesn't necessarily need EU Vat code
>>>> - the EU code is required only if you trade with other EU countries.
>>>> Inside the country, only the NIP is used. So if you define it like
>>>> that, you will have many Organisations which would issue vat invoices
>>>> and pay vat without having the "vat_code", only with the
>>>> "fiscal_code".
>>>>
>>>> By the way, how is the EU Vat constructed for French entities? And how
>>>> it works in other EU countries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It works differently in every country. In general (anywhere in the
>>> world), there is
>>> - registration code provided by the business registry for the company
>>> - a fiscal code, or revenue tax code, which is like NIP in Poland
>>>
>>> In most countries, there is
>>> - registration code provided by the business registry for each
>>> office of the company
>>>
>>> In some countries, those which have VAT, there is
>>> - a vat_code which can be somehow be the same or different from the
>>> fiscal code
>>>
>>> In some countries, those which have a statistics institute, there is:
>>> - an activity code to produce nation statistics
>>>
>>> In France, the vat_code is similar to the registration code, not to the
>>> fiscal code. I am sure in other countries, it could be fully unrelated.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> JPS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bartek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
>>>>>> like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
>>>>>> tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
>>>>>> corporation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> JPS.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JPS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bartek Gorny a écrit :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
>>>>>>>>> we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
>>>>>>>>> in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
>>>>>>>>> country.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
>>>>>>>>> a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
>>>>>>>>> individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
>>>>>>>>> that person in a unique manner.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
>>>>>>>>> be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the end, there are 2 different documents:
>>>>>>>>> a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
>>>>>>>>> b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
>>>>>>>>> in ERP5
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
>>>>>>>>> - one Person which represents himself as physical entity
>>>>>>>>> - one Person which represents his/her business
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
>>>>>>>> represents his/her business" here, right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
>>>>>>>>> business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
>>>>>>>>> corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
>>>>>>>>> therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
>>>>>>>>> conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
>>>>>>>>> operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
>>>>>>>>> individual business.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I considered this approach, but saw two major drawbacks:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
>>>>>>>> an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
>>>>>>>> when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
>>>>>>>> owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
>>>>>>>> business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
>>>>>>>> common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
>>>>>>>> countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
>>>>>>>> the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
>>>>>>>> with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
>>>>>>>> have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
>>>>>>>> from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
>>>>>>>> retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
>>>>>>>> does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
>>>>>>>> contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
>>>>>>>> doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
>>>>>>>> the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
>>>>>>>> be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
>>>>>>>> a new one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
>>>>>>>> something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
>>>>>>>> security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
>>>>>>>> is missing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
>>>>>>>>> a case in which:
>>>>>>>>> - a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
>>>>>>>>> individual business)
>>>>>>>>> - purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
>>>>>>>>> - and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
>>>>>>>>> not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
>>>>>>>>> form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
>>>>>>>>> issues nowadays in ERP5:
>>>>>>>>> 1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
>>>>>>>>> necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
>>>>>>>>> addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
>>>>>>>>> value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
>>>>>>>>> are unique for a given country.
>>>>>>>>> 2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
>>>>>>>>> vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
>>>>>>>>> related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
>>>>>>>>> missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
>>>>>>>>> which is both universal and covers all cases.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> JPS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Vera Kurpas a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 17:32 +0100, Bartek Gorny wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
>>>>>>>>>>> vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
>>>>>>>>>>> has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
>>>>>>>>>>> person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
>>>>>>>>>>> person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
>>>>>>>>>>> organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
>>>>>>>>>>> if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
>>>>>>>>>>> NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
>>>>>>>>>>> other applications NIP is used to property identify a
>>>>>>>>>>> person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
>>>>>>>>>>> France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
>>>>>>>>>>> unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
>>>>>>>>>>> consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
>>>>>>>>>> number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
>>>>>>>>>> registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
>>>>>>>>>> business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
>>>>>>>>>> The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
>>>>>>>>>>> be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
>>>>>>>>>> and sorting purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>> not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>>>>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>>>>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>>>>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>>>>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>>>>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> "Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent
>> but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry."
>> Eric S.Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron"
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
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