[Erp5-dev] person and vat code

Tue Feb 10 10:08:24 CET 2009

Hello, hello - anybody there? I thought we started working on something...

This list is an attempt to put together a generic list and apply it to
Polish condition - to test if it is ok requires a similar application
for other countries. And a constructive criticism from some of the
core developers...

B.

2009/2/5 Bartek Gorny <bartek at gorny.edu.pl>:
> Let's try to put it all together - first a list of properties, then
> questions, then what is missing currently in ERP5, then issues to
> discuss:
>
> Properties
> ------------
> The following numbers/codes are essential from legal and fiscal point of view:
>
> personal ID
> description: a unique number given to every person
> refers to: Person
> multiplicity: 1 *
> name in ERP5: social_code
> name in Poland: PESEL
>
> * in fact a person who has multiple citizenship can have the ID in
> more then one country, but we probably don't have to bother
>
> registration code
> description: provided by the business registry for the company
> refers to: Organisation
> multiplicity: 1
> name in ERP5: corporate_registration_code
> name in Poland: KRS
>
> activity code
> description: provided by statistics institute to produce national statistics
> refers to: Organisation
> multiplicity: 1
> name in ERP5: activity_code
> name in Poland: REGON
>
> fiscal code
> description: a unique number given to every tax payer; given to every
> adult citizen and to every legal entity; used for filing tax forms,
> vat settlements, printed on invoices within the country
> refers to: Person and Organisation
> multiplicity: 1 *
> name in ERP5: (missing)
> name in Poland: NIP
>
> * except corner cases like expatriates, which we probably can skip
>
> european vat code
> description: a unique number given to every business entity trading
> with other EU countries; printed on invoices issued for foreign
> clients
> refers to: Person
> multiplicity: many - potentially one per EU country *
> name in ERP5: vat_code
> name in Poland: "Europejski numer VAT" or "NIP europejski"
>
> * normally an organisation registers for EU vat code in its country of
> residence; however, there are cases whereby an organisation pays VAT
> also in other EU countries to which it exports
>
> Questions:
> -----------
> - what is geographic_incorporate_code?
> - what is social_code of an Organisation?
>
> What is missing
> -------------------
>
> - fiscal code for both Person and Organisation
> - multiple vat_codes
>
> Discussion
> -----------------
>
> 1) Some countries have something like "social security number", I
> don't know if it is an equivalent of "personal ID" or "fiscal code". I
> hope someone from another country joins the discussion...
>
> 2) I think social code and fiscal code should be catalogged - this is
> because (a) these codes are very important and are often used to find
> and identify a person or an organisation, and (b) because they are
> assured to be unique country-wide, so a serious application should be
> able to check if there are no duplicates.
>
> 3) If we follow the principle that a business activity of a Person is
> represented by a respective Organisation, what relation should link
> the two? I presume there should be a relation, and some properties
> (like fiscal code or default address) will be acquired along the
> relation.
>
> 4) Maybe we could develop something like "country-based property",
> where one could input one value per every country defined in the
> region tree - that would cover all corner cases of expats with
> mutliple ids and fiscal codes, companies with multiple vat codes etc?
>
> Bartek
>
>
> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>> Bartek Gorny a écrit :
>>> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Thanks. There are 2 numbers:
>>>>    fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
>>>>    vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
>>>> other countries) which is ony for Organisation
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's quite correct, but - please keep in mind that while a business
>>> has to have a NIP to operate, it doesn't necessarily need EU Vat code
>>> - the EU code is required only if you trade with other EU countries.
>>> Inside the country, only the NIP is used. So if you define it like
>>> that, you will have many Organisations which would issue vat invoices
>>> and pay vat without having the "vat_code", only with the
>>> "fiscal_code".
>>>
>>> By the way, how is the EU Vat constructed for French entities? And how
>>> it works in other EU countries?
>>>
>>>
>> It works differently in every country. In general (anywhere in the
>> world), there is
>>    - registration code provided by the business registry for the company
>>    - a fiscal code, or revenue tax code, which is like NIP in Poland
>>
>> In most countries, there is
>>    - registration code provided by the business registry for each
>> office of the company
>>
>> In some countries, those which have VAT, there is
>>    - a vat_code which can be somehow be the same or different from the
>> fiscal code
>>
>> In some countries, those which have a statistics institute, there is:
>>     - an activity code to produce nation statistics
>>
>> In France, the vat_code is similar to the registration code, not to the
>> fiscal code. I am sure in other countries, it could be fully unrelated.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> JPS.
>>
>>
>>> Bartek
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
>>>>> like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
>>>>> tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
>>>>> corporation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> JPS.
>>>>
>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JPS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bartek Gorny a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
>>>>>>>> we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
>>>>>>>> in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
>>>>>>>> country.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
>>>>>>>> a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
>>>>>>>> individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
>>>>>>>> that person in a unique manner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
>>>>>>>> be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the end, there are 2 different documents:
>>>>>>>> a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
>>>>>>>> b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
>>>>>>>> in ERP5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
>>>>>>>> - one Person which represents himself as physical entity
>>>>>>>> - one Person which represents his/her business
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
>>>>>>> represents his/her business" here, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
>>>>>>>> business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
>>>>>>>> corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
>>>>>>>> therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
>>>>>>>> conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
>>>>>>>> operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
>>>>>>>> individual business.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I considered this approach, but saw two major drawbacks:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
>>>>>>> an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
>>>>>>> when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
>>>>>>> owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
>>>>>>> business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
>>>>>>> common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
>>>>>>> countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
>>>>>>> the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
>>>>>>> with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
>>>>>>> have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
>>>>>>> from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
>>>>>>> retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
>>>>>>> does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
>>>>>>> contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
>>>>>>> doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
>>>>>>> the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
>>>>>>> be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
>>>>>>> a new one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
>>>>>>> something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
>>>>>>> security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
>>>>>>> is missing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
>>>>>>>> a case in which:
>>>>>>>> - a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
>>>>>>>> individual business)
>>>>>>>> - purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
>>>>>>>> - and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
>>>>>>>> not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
>>>>>>>> form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
>>>>>>>> issues nowadays in ERP5:
>>>>>>>> 1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
>>>>>>>> necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
>>>>>>>> addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
>>>>>>>> value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
>>>>>>>> are unique for a given country.
>>>>>>>> 2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
>>>>>>>> vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
>>>>>>>> related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
>>>>>>>> missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
>>>>>>>> which is both universal and covers all cases.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JPS.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vera Kurpas a écrit :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 17:32 +0100, Bartek Gorny wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
>>>>>>>>>> vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
>>>>>>>>>> has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
>>>>>>>>>> person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
>>>>>>>>>> person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
>>>>>>>>>> organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
>>>>>>>>>> if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
>>>>>>>>>> NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
>>>>>>>>>> other applications NIP is used to property identify a
>>>>>>>>>> person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
>>>>>>>>>> France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
>>>>>>>>>> unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
>>>>>>>>>> consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
>>>>>>>>> number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
>>>>>>>>> registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
>>>>>>>>> business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
>>>>>>>>> The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
>>>>>>>>>> be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
>>>>>>>>> and sorting purposes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>> not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>>>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>>>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>>>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>>>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>>>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>>>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>> http://www.erp5.com
>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>> http://www.myerp5.com
>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent
> but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry."
> Eric S.Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron"
>

-- 
"Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent
but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry."
Eric S.Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron"