Bartek,<br><br><br>Your comments regarding the "Nexedi controlled Erp5" is the reason why I <br>cant depend upon it. Nexedi's actions/inactions exemplifies mistrust!<br><br>Now, this does not preclude any other individual/entity forking Erp5 :)<br>
<br>Let see what the future holds, or if Nexedi will ever change.<br><br>Hope springs eternal on BOTH FRONTS!<br><br>Sincerely,<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 4:29 AM, bartek <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bartek@gorny.edu.pl">bartek@gorny.edu.pl</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="im">On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:45:34 +0100<br>
<a href="mailto:jp@nexedi.com">jp@nexedi.com</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> Here are some replies and some informations.<br>
><br>
> > around ERP5, community support is next to none, community<br>
> > contribution is next to none (as even Nicolas pointed out while<br>
> > talking about wiki).<br>
><br>
> Significant community contributions were made outside Nexedi :<br>
> - cloudooo document conversion server<br>
> - complete translations of ERP5 in portuguese<br>
> - Petri-net based modeling of NEO distributed storage<br>
> (<a href="http://www.neoppod.org/" target="_blank">http://www.neoppod.org/</a>)<br>
> - Various accounting plans and localisations business templates<br>
> - ERP5 eGov, e-government system<br>
> - Audio and Video support in ERP5<br>
> - raskon buildout and wiki pages<br>
><br>
> Community support :<br>
> - Nexedi replies to questions to mailing list (for example, to you<br>
> last year, for a significant issue you raised)<br>
<br>
</div>This is not a community support - a community support is a support done<br>
by a community. Community is something which is not Nexedi.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> - Nexedi provides for free TioLive Grid to simplify initial ERP5<br>
> configuration (this saves many hours)<br>
> - raskon & friends supports users of raskon buildout and raskon wiki<br>
> pages<br>
<br>
</div>(sigh) Funny you should now use Boris and myself to prove to me that<br>
there is a community :D Let me just remind you about some cases:<br>
<br>
- when Boris made Debian packages, you started making you own Debian<br>
packages<br>
<br>
- when people used raskon buildout, you repeatedly said on the ML<br>
"please don't use that one, please use the official buildout, it is<br>
the only reliable installation, you should use this one" etc etc.<br>
<br>
- when Luke and me set up a handbook to provide an organised<br>
documentation, the only thing you did was telling users not to use<br>
it - you didn't use it, you didn't review it, zero collaboration.<br>
<br>
- when I made erp5admin, which is being used by every erp5 developer I<br>
know (including some within Nexedi), there was zero cooperation from<br>
your side [1] - instead, you did erp5_development_bar "to replace<br>
one day the erp5_admin extension"<br>
<br>
That's your "collaborative project". Now, try to prove Nexedi is happy<br>
about community initiatives...<br>
<br>
Of course you are going to tell me that there were lots of<br>
initiatives which you were very happy about it and which were<br>
successfully completed with your eager cooperation.The problem is,<br>
you can tell lots of stories like that. You can tell about gazillions of<br>
users somewhere, about "large companies and research institutes" which<br>
happily contribute, about extremely successful community initiatives, et<br>
ceatera. But all those things are invisible - there is no visible<br>
evidence any of these exists. All this is only your words. What we see<br>
is dead mailing lists and we-do-everything-ourselves attitude.<br>
<br>
To be precise: I know there are some companies which are your<br>
customers, and there probably are some research institutes which do<br>
some R&D paid for by EU grants. And there are people outside Nexedi<br>
which you subcontract do to certain things. But all this is private<br>
(non-public) and commercial, and has nothing to do with a real<br>
open-source community. It is only your private network of<br>
subcontractors which you manage, and nothing more. There is no visible<br>
sign of any community/open source activity taking place. Unless you can<br>
prove otherwise.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
><br>
> I do not know if TioLive counts as community, but thousands of people<br>
> have received free support through TioLive.<br>
<br>
</div>I know nothing about it. I use TioLive too. Some time ago I asked your<br>
"community manager" how can I contact other TioLive users. The answer<br>
was that I couldn't, because there was no mailing list and a forum was<br>
under construction. How, then, do TioLive users receive community<br>
support from other TioLive users?<br>
<br>
Bartek<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
><br>
> > This is clear for anyone who takes a look on the mailing list. The<br>
> > key<br>
><br>
> Most community work happens for ERP5 outside the mailing list,<br>
> through personal interactions between people who know each other<br>
> quite well. This has the advantage to protect the trade secret of<br>
> certain large users of ERP5 and to minimize the effects of Philippe's<br>
> Law (the productivity of a software developer in a team of N people<br>
> is diminished by dividing it by the cube root of N). It has the<br>
> disadvantage that some people thus believe there is no community<br>
> although there is.<br>
><br>
> > question is: is Nexedi happy about it, or not?<br>
><br>
> Nexedi is happy that people outside Nexedi already made significant<br>
> contributions and would be happy to see more.<br>
><br>
> To make sure this happens, Nexedi is sponsoring the "One Student One<br>
> ERP" (<a href="http://www.osoe-project.org" target="_blank">www.osoe-project.org</a>) project in universities all over the<br>
> world. By training students to understand ERPs in general and get<br>
> some practice with ERP5, we expect to increase the number of people<br>
> capable to contribute in the long term to ERP5 and use it without<br>
> Nexedi's support. We also hope to raise the awareness of how tough<br>
> implementing an ERP can be for social reasons.<br>
><br>
> > them by raising issues, asking questions, lobbying for tickets,<br>
><br>
> Nexedi welcomes questions. Our resources are limited so it is not<br>
> possible to reply to all of them. But we try.<br>
><br>
> > like. Recent change in the way documentation is managed - from wiki,<br>
> > to which some people (like me) did in their time contribute a lot -<br>
> > towards a closed documentation repository - seem to confirm it. But<br>
> > for<br>
><br>
> The documentation management did not change unlike what you describe.<br>
> - developer howtos are hosted on the wiki (<a href="http://www.erp5.org" target="_blank">www.erp5.org</a>) which<br>
> provides easy way to community to contribute<br>
> - end user documentation is hosted on <a href="http://erp5.com" target="_blank">erp5.com</a> which provides a good<br>
> conversion engine for the tutorials<br>
><br>
> Once <a href="http://erp5.com" target="_blank">erp5.com</a> can provide the same level of contribution support as<br>
> moinmoin wiki, content will be moved to <a href="http://erp5.com" target="_blank">erp5.com</a>. But not until it<br>
> can provide the same level of ease for community.<br>
><br>
> > real "community project" (or even an open source project) because<br>
> > that is cheating people.<br>
><br>
> ERP5 is a real community project. It meets all the criteria of a<br>
> community driven project as defined here:<br>
> <a href="http://almaer.com/blog/community-driven-open-source" target="_blank">http://almaer.com/blog/community-driven-open-source</a><br>
><br>
> - committers from outside of Nexedi (ex. ERP5 eGov, Video)<br>
> - cleaning up documentation for the community (<a href="http://erp5.com" target="_blank">erp5.com</a> documentation<br>
> index)<br>
> - users who have helped with the documentation (you for example,<br>
> people in Brazil)<br>
> - some kind of forums/lists where people help each other (this one<br>
> for example)<br>
> - a lot of effort to build your community to get true benefits (OSOE<br>
> project, training developers in Africa)<br>
><br>
> Of course, we could always do more. But it would be unfair not to<br>
> recognize the efforts made and the progress towards more community in<br>
> recent years.<br>
><br>
> > Otherwise - if you are not happy about it and would really like this<br>
> > project to have an active developer and user community - please<br>
> > state what you are going to do to make it happen. Open Source is<br>
> > truly not<br>
><br>
> In order to progress further towards larger community, here is what<br>
> Nexedi is going to make happen:<br>
> - more OSOE (please help on this, please help a lot)<br>
> - publication of ERP5 roadmap<br>
> - publication of bug tracker by investing time of Nexedi staff to<br>
> cleanup bug reports from any sensitive information<br>
> - migration of ERP5 repository from subversion to a DVCS (git seems<br>
> to be the favoured one) so that more people can fork ERP5 and merging<br>
> later gets simplified<br>
> - migration of TioLive FAQ to <a href="http://erp5.com" target="_blank">erp5.com</a><br>
> - release of new applications based on ERP5 which do not require as<br>
> much knowledge of management and are easier to grasp by developers<br>
> than a full ERP<br>
> - funding of joint R&D projects based on ERP5 (feel free to contact<br>
> me if your company is in EU, Russia, Korea, Israel, Swiss, Norway or<br>
> Brazil, there are some good things to do)<br>
><br>
> I think it is also now a good time to define the purpose of ERP5<br>
> mailing lists:<br>
> - erp5-user to explain how to use the default configuration of ERP5,<br>
> ie. the one which is provided by TioLive through this bt5<br>
> (<a href="http://svn.erp5.org/erp5/trunk/bt5/erp5_configurator_standard/" target="_blank">http://svn.erp5.org/erp5/trunk/bt5/erp5_configurator_standard/</a>) by<br>
> improving documentation and howtos<br>
> - erp5-dev to explain how to develop with ERP5 by improving<br>
> documentation and howtos<br>
> - erp5-discussion for other topics (for example, this thread should<br>
> go there from now, so that users can help each other)<br>
><br>
> This way, people interested in using ERP5 ask questions to erp5-user<br>
> and help improving the FAQ. Developers ask question to erp5-dev and<br>
> help improving <a href="http://erp5.org" target="_blank">erp5.org</a> developer howtos. Nexedi can invest time on<br>
> both FAQs to help the community.<br>
><br>
> > difficult to learn what it takes to make an OS project at least<br>
> > developer-friendly. This book: <a href="http://producingoss.com/" target="_blank">http://producingoss.com/</a> can be a<br>
> > good start.<br>
><br>
> Karl Fogel provides one point of view on what is a community. There<br>
> are other point of views.<br>
><br>
> The path chosen for ERP5 community, a path in which mailing list is<br>
> less important than friendly relations between an ever expanding<br>
> group of engineers in different companies and countries, has its own<br>
> merits which should not underestimated. What is happening in Brazil,<br>
> in Sénégal, in France and some more countries shows how important it<br>
> is to meet most people in person to convince them how ERPs and ERP5<br>
> can be useful. Without face to face meeting, people and especially<br>
> developers only see ERP5 as a development tool and often have no idea<br>
> how to use it to handle complex social organisations. Thanks to face<br>
> to face meeting, it is easier to transfer know how and underlying<br>
> philosophy of ERP5.<br>
><br>
> About communities, I am very much interested in this article by Brian<br>
> Prentice:<br>
> <a href="http://blogs.gartner.com/brian_prentice/2009/11/03/open-source-business-apps-is-there-a-disconnect/" target="_blank">http://blogs.gartner.com/brian_prentice/2009/11/03/open-source-business-apps-is-there-a-disconnect/</a><br>
><br>
> The real issue to build a long term ERP5 community should be to bring<br>
> companies which already use ERP5 to collaborate on how they use ERP5,<br>
> how they could improve their business rather than keep in a situation<br>
> in which each company customizes ERP5 to their needs and does not try<br>
> to share knowledge. This is still an open issue because of the<br>
> conflicts with the notion of trade secret. Yet, I have good hopes to<br>
> find a path some day.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
> JP Smets.<br>
> Nexedi CEO<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div>[1] One commit from Jerome and one from Luke (not counting Luke's<br>
commits when he was not yet in Nexedi)<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
</font><div class="im">"Po co zaraz idealny stan? Czy nie lepiej, kiedy nikt nie może zrobić z<br>
nikogo abażura do lampy?" (Mec. Finkelstein, w: Stanisław Lem "Wizja<br>
Lokalna")<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>