[Erp5-dev] person and vat code
Jean-Paul Smets
jp at nexedi.com
Thu Feb 5 16:38:35 CET 2009
Bartek Gorny a écrit :
> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>
>>
>>>
>> Thanks. There are 2 numbers:
>> fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
>> vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
>> other countries) which is ony for Organisation
>>
>
> That's quite correct, but - please keep in mind that while a business
> has to have a NIP to operate, it doesn't necessarily need EU Vat code
> - the EU code is required only if you trade with other EU countries.
> Inside the country, only the NIP is used. So if you define it like
> that, you will have many Organisations which would issue vat invoices
> and pay vat without having the "vat_code", only with the
> "fiscal_code".
>
> By the way, how is the EU Vat constructed for French entities? And how
> it works in other EU countries?
>
>
It works differently in every country. In general (anywhere in the
world), there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for the company
- a fiscal code, or revenue tax code, which is like NIP in Poland
In most countries, there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for each
office of the company
In some countries, those which have VAT, there is
- a vat_code which can be somehow be the same or different from the
fiscal code
In some countries, those which have a statistics institute, there is:
- an activity code to produce nation statistics
In France, the vat_code is similar to the registration code, not to the
fiscal code. I am sure in other countries, it could be fully unrelated.
Regards,
JPS.
> Bartek
>
>
>>> Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
>>> like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
>>> tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
>>> corporation.
>>>
>>>
>> NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> JPS.
>>
>>> Bartek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> JPS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bartek Gorny a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 2009/2/5 Jean-Paul Smets <jp at nexedi.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
>>>>>> we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
>>>>>> in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
>>>>>> country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
>>>>>> a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
>>>>>> individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
>>>>>> that person in a unique manner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
>>>>>> be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the end, there are 2 different documents:
>>>>>> a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
>>>>>> b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
>>>>>> in ERP5
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
>>>>>> - one Person which represents himself as physical entity
>>>>>> - one Person which represents his/her business
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
>>>>> represents his/her business" here, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
>>>>>> business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
>>>>>> corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
>>>>>> therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
>>>>>> conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
>>>>>> operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
>>>>>> individual business.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I considered this approach, but saw two major drawbacks:
>>>>>
>>>>> - in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
>>>>> an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
>>>>> when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
>>>>> owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
>>>>> business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
>>>>>
>>>>> - the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
>>>>> common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
>>>>> countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
>>>>> the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
>>>>> with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
>>>>> have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
>>>>> from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
>>>>> retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
>>>>> does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
>>>>> contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
>>>>> doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
>>>>> the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
>>>>> be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
>>>>> a new one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
>>>>> something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
>>>>> security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
>>>>> is missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
>>>>>> a case in which:
>>>>>> - a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
>>>>>> individual business)
>>>>>> - purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
>>>>>> - and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
>>>>>> not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
>>>>>> form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
>>>>>> issues nowadays in ERP5:
>>>>>> 1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
>>>>>> necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
>>>>>> addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
>>>>>> value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
>>>>>> are unique for a given country.
>>>>>> 2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
>>>>>> vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
>>>>>> related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
>>>>>> missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
>>>>>> which is both universal and covers all cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JPS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vera Kurpas a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 17:32 +0100, Bartek Gorny wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
>>>>>>>> vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
>>>>>>>> has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
>>>>>>>> person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
>>>>>>>> person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
>>>>>>>> organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
>>>>>>>> if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
>>>>>>>> NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
>>>>>>>> other applications NIP is used to property identify a
>>>>>>>> person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
>>>>>>>> France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
>>>>>>>> unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
>>>>>>>> consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
>>>>>>> number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
>>>>>>> registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
>>>>>>> business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
>>>>>>> The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
>>>>>>>> be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
>>>>>>> and sorting purposes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>> not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bartek
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>>>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>>>> http://www.erp5.com
>>>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>>>> http://www.myerp5.com
>>>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>>>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Erp5-dev mailing list
>>>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>>>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
>> ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
>> http://www.erp5.com
>> ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
>> http://www.myerp5.com
>> Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
>> http://www.nexedi.com
>>
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>> Erp5-dev at erp5.org
>> http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. +33(0)6 62 05 76 14
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
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